Shooting rampage at Clackamas mall leaves 3 dead, including shooter
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CLACKAMAS, Ore. – A gunman opened fire Tuesday in a busy Clackamas shopping center, leaving the shooter and two others dead and forcing the mall's Santa Claus and hundreds of Christmas shoppers and employees to flee or hide among store displays.
The shooting happened around 3:30 p.m. at the Clackamas Town Center. The Clackamas County Sheriff's Office immediately received a flurry of 9-1-1 calls and dispatched deputies to the scene where they divided up into small teams to track down the shooter.
The gunman shot and killed two people and critically injured a third person before turning the gun on himself, Clackamas County Sheriff's Office spokesman Lt. James Rhodes told reporters outside the mall. He added that no deputies fired their weapons during the incident.
At a news conference later in the evening, Clackamas County Sheriff Craig Roberts said responding officers handled the situation admirably.
"I'm really proud of all the different agencies that came together to really step up and put their lives on the line," he said, adding that there were law enforcement officers at the mall minutes after the first reports of shots. Four SWAT teams were quickly deployed, Roberts said, to "basically hunt down this guy in the mall."
At the height of the terror, over 100 officers from nearly every government agency - from the city to the federal levels - responded. Deputies searched the mall room by room looking for anyone who might be injured or hiding. By 6:30 p.m. they had searched almost the entire building. "We will search this mall until we are certain it is secure and everyone has been removed," Rhodes said at the time.
At this point, investigators have not yet released any details about the suspect or two victims who were killed. All they have said is that the shooter was an adult male.
The victim who survived is Kristina Shevchenko and she is in "serious" condition, according to Oregon Health & Science University, where she is being treated. Her age was not specified.
Shevchenko was hit several times by gunfire and arrived at the hospital between 5:15 p.m. and 5:30 p.m., roughly two hours after the shooting began. Doctors did not say exactly how many gunshot wounds she suffered or where those wounds are located.
"We have a young lady in the hospital fighting for her life right now," Roberts said on Tuesday.
Wednesday morning, a note regarding the shooting was posted on the Clackamas Town Center's Facebook page:
Our thoughts and prayers are with everyone who was in the mall at the time of this unfortunate incident. We are grateful to have the stellar support of all the law enforcement agencies and rescue personnel in the area, who immediately took action and continue to ensure the safety of everyone remaining at the property. The mall will remain closed tomorrow, Wednesday, December 12.
Governor Kitzhaber ordered flags at public institutions to be immediately lowered to half staff on Wednesday in honor of the shooting victims. “My thoughts and prayers are with the victims, their families and their friends during this very difficult time,” Governor Kitzhaber said in an email. “I would also like to thank the first responders and the many citizens who helped protect those at risk.”
The Clackamas County Sheriff's Office is asking any witnesses or anyone with information about the shooting to call them at 503-723-4949 or go to this web page to submit a tip.
WITNESSES DESCRIBE THE SCENE
Holly Bautista
Holly Bautista, 28, said she was shopping at Macy's for a Christmas dress for her daughter when she heard pops that sounded like firecrackers.
"I heard people running and screaming and saying 'Get out, there's somebody shooting," she said.
Bautista said hundreds of shoppers and mall employees started running, and she and dozens of other people were trying to escape through a department store exit.
Anna Canzano
KATU Reporter Anna Canzano said her husband, Oregonian sports columnist John Canzano, was pulling up to the mall when the shooting happened. He said people reported hearing around 60 shots from the food court.
Kris Kringle
A man who has played Santa at the mall for 11 years said he heard more than a dozen shots that were clearly from a semi-automatic weapon.
"I hit the floor inside the set and fortunately there weren't too many kids or people in the set area," said the man, who would only give his name as 'Kris Kringle.'
David Moran
Austin Patty
Austin Patty, 20, who works at Macy's, said he saw a man in a white mask carrying a rifle and wearing a vest. He said he heard the gunman say "I am the shooter," as if announcing himself.
Police later clarified the suspect was not wearing a bulletproof vest.
A series of rapid-fire shots in short succession followed as Christmas music played. Patty said he ducked to the ground and then ran.
Amber Tate
Amber Tate said she was coming out of Macy’s and standing by her car when she spotted a gunman who looked like a teenager.
Tate, who didn't hear any shots fired, said at first she thought the gunman was wearing a paintball vest.
"But then I saw all these people running out screaming and people grabbing their kids and crying and trying to get into their cars as fast as they could," she said.
Nadia Teleguz
Nadia Teleguz, who was in the mall at the time of the shooting, said a family friend was shot by the gunman.
"My friend's sister got shot," Teleguz said. "She's on her way to OHSU. They're saying she got shot in her side and so it's not life-threatening, so she'll be OK."
As of Tuesday evening, the woman was listed in stable condition at the hospital.
Marin Torres, Jr.
Evan Walters
An employee at a store in the mall, Evan Walters, was locked inside a store with about 10 others just a few feet away from where the shooting happened. Walters said at least 20 shots were fired.
"It was kind of surreal because we hear pops and loud noises all the time because we're right here by the food court, but it's never been anything like that,” he said. “It was very definite gun shots. I think most all of us knew it was gunshots. There really was no rhyme or reason to them. There were many in a row."
Walters said he saw two people who had been shot and killed. He and other store employees brought out sheets from the store to place over the victims.
"Everyone's just trying to stick together and be as calm as possible for people ... I don't know what else to say,” Walters said. “It's just kind of scary. We're just trying to be as strong as we can and hopefully we'll be out of this as soon as possible."
Shaun Wik
Shaun Wik, 20, from Fairview, said he was Christmas shopping with his girlfriend and opened a fortune cookie at the food court. Inside was written: "Live for today. Remember yesterday. Think of tomorrow." As he read it, he heard three shots and a man he believes was the gunman shout, "Get down!"
Wik and his girlfriend ran and he heard seven or eight more shots. He didn't turn around.
"If I had looked back, I might not be standing here," he said. "I might have been one of the ones who got hit."
THE HEROES
"We had some true heroes stepping up," Clackamas County Sheriff Craig Roberts said during a news conference nearly five hours after the first shots were reported at the Clackamas Town Center.
Some emergency room nurses and a physician were at the mall when the gunfire erupted, and they immediately went to work to provide care to the wounded, he said. Others, including everyday citizens, also worked to help get the 10,000 people out of the mall.
IN THE AFTERMATH
Witnesses still sought
Lt. Rhodes said anyone who witnessed the shooting should get in contact with the Clackamas County Sheriff's Office by calling (503) 655-8211.
Mall information
The Clackamas Town Center will be closed on Wednesday. Clackamas Town Center management said they plan to post information for stores, employees and shoppers on their website. They will also post information so people who left belongings in the mall can retrieve them.
TriMet information
TriMet service will be impacted on Wednesday.
- MAX Green Line riders will need to board or de-board trains at the Southeast Fuller Road MAX station.
- Riders will not be allowed into the Clackamas Town Center Transit Center MAX Station. The parking garage at the transit center will also be closed.
- Parking spaces will be limited at the Fuller Road Park & Ride. Riders should use the Holgate Blvd. or Powell Blvd. Park & Rides.
- The 10 TriMet bus lines that service the Clackamas Town Center Transit Center and other bus stops in the mall's parking lot will continue to be detoured. The buses will serve temporary stops on Monterey Avenue, near the parking lot entrance by the movie theater, and at the Fuller Street MAX Station. The lines being detoured are: 28, 29, 30, 31, 71, 72, 79, 152, 155 and 156.
Interior map of the Clackamas Town Center
Nukes don't kill people, people do!
@peace People who exploit physic kill, ban physics, contact weapons all rely on mass in motion to cause damge, whether it is a club, BFR, or firearm, mass and velocity determine the amount of energy the target has to aborb. I hate physics, one time I had the misfortune of being too close to a large explosion of high explosives, I was in a covered position and not directly exposed to the blast, however, after the initial blast wave passed over me, the velocity of the wave lowered the air pressure above and the greater pressure in my protected position pushed me into the blast stream, I was throw about 20 feet, thankfully, the majority of projectiles had already passed my position, so all I had to do was absorb the amount of energy that was needed to toss a 215 pound man twenty feet, twice, once on acceleration and then the sudden deceleration, pain is Gods way of letting you know that you survived, damn that hurt.  Â
Anyone remember that kid back in the mid 80s, that went to high ground at Autzen Stadium and started shooting anyone he could get a scope on, even moving targets, like the joggers on the jogging path. An acquaitance knew the kid from his fraternity. Kid had all of these Soldier of Fortune Magazines, with posters and T-shirts of "Kill'em All! Let God sort'em Out!". Kid was so blatently psychotic, yet none of his peers alerted the authorities. Or, maybe they did, and authorities did nothing...because of the lax gun laws back then.
 @peace How would the gun laws today have made any difference? We don't revoke someone's right to a firearm because of their choice of magazines, posters and t-shirts.
@PleaseBeSmart @peace--- that's what they said about kiddy porn magazines back in those days. People knew something was wrong with this kid, but could not put their finger on it until it was too late. But, hindsight is not a fair thing to raise, when none of our youth knew how many psycho-perverts were out there. As you have informed me before, there may not yet be a solution to atrocities from nut jobs. And, it is nice to know that moral/technical sentinals protect us from such scum. Thanks to the internet, we are a more informed public. And, I have learned how to not be an extremist anti-gun advocate...thanks to you and Captain Fancy Jack.
Baldr Odiousness. The most closed-minded open-minded person you will ever meet.
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I don't even mind the term "assault" rifle so much. After all that's what it is intended to do...assault the targe. No different than a "fast" or "sports" car. It implies its purpose, however the operator of the device is the one that chooses the use.
@Biff Johnson I call him Balderdash
I totally agree with MarineMom, and have been guilty of losing site of  the forest for the trees, by enjoying these debates, rather than mourning the victims. I know little about gun laws, so I cannot choose sides or even attempt to moderate. I can however comment on the most important issue: gun proliferation among "pychotic assholes"---better term than "nut job" (thanks). In the Army, we (couple of whom were drunken fools--on their way to becoming psychotic assholes) would read Soilder of Fortune magazine. Back in the 80s there were many articles on how to convert the AR-15 into a defacto M-16 simply by filing down a component part (authors claimed), making it "rock n roll" capable. Those 1st Ammendment rights are an endless debate too. So, I think my time is better spent in prayer for all the loved ones killed every year by psychotic assholes the world over. I will be a spectator (perhaps an armed one) and let the experts try to figure out a solution. Because, I don't know how in the hell we can get rid of this endless surplus of psychotic assholes. Â
@peace If is very difficult for a lay man to convert an AR 15 in a full auto, the rifle fires from a closed bolt and it would be pointless, the cyclic rate is above 600 rounds per minute, 10 rounds a second, we altered the M16 to only give a 3 round burst, when on full auto, the rifle would fire all 20 rounds before the recoil would move the rifle off its point of aim, you hit the same target 20 times, Semi-auto is the most effective mode for combat and that is what we teach. Spray and pary is pointless and a waste of ammo, one shot, one kill is the most effective. We have been fortunate, most of the shooter in recent history appear to be guntards, when that changes, the body count will be higher and it will take a kill team to get them out.Â
My hearts and prayers go out to those that lost their loved ones tonight. Tomorrow everyone who wants to bicker about gun laws will forget the lives that were lost today as well as the trauma that people went through. I understand what Baldr is saying, there need to be better controls, I am not anit gun, I am a veteran who raised two Marines, it is not a matter of taking away someones gun, it is keeping it out of the hands of psychotic assholes that will walk into a mall, a movie theater or a school and just start firing
@MarineMom I could give a damn about the victims, there is a reason we call them victims, they were sheep lead to slaughter, they put their welfare into the hands of sociopaths with badges and believed they were safe. The dead understand the error in their thinking.
@Fancy Jack--- I sometimes feel this way, when I wake up on the wrong side of the bed, with a hangover, no cup of coffee, no tobacco, no food and no way to defend myself frrom all the criminals in my neighborhood. But, I somehow find compassion most days of the week, just so I can hang on to the few friends I have.
@Fancy Jack--- I sure hope not. In the mean time, I will wager that you have no enemies because they are probably all dead. So, I will not disagree with you. Peace!
@peace That will pass with time, so hang on to it as long as you can.
 @MarineMom I don't know why you think someone who bickers about gun laws would think any less about the victims than someone who just says their hearts and prayers go out to the loved ones, because that's not true.
@PleaseBeSmart @MarineMom ---understood. It is important to remember that people bickering about gun laws can be just as concerned (if not more) about condolences for the latest tragedy. But, it is ironic that I have seen people passionately wave their loaded guns around while drinking and having heated arguements about gun laws.
@PleaseBeSmart ---that's why I got the hell out of there. I did not have a gun and I did not have a sphinter tearing weapon. I lost the arguement, but I am still alive (for now).
 @peace =/ I would tear those people a new sphincter. Drinking and guns don't mix.
Ceasefire Oregon's official statement on the shooting: Â http://newtrajectory.blogspot.com/2012/12/a-statement-from-ceasefire-oregon-on.html
 @Baldr Odinson Let's not word this to imply that it's anything more than YOUR ramblings, mkay? In my book, that's just sleazy.
 @PleaseBeSmart I didn't write the statement.
 @Baldr Odinson Do you get told often to stop your nonsense and just shut up?
Not enough people killed to even warrant a conversation, Love kills, we should outlaw love, shooter has a large capacity mag and only 4 people get shot, this sounds personal.
 @Fancy Jack Really?? And just how many people need to be killed for you to "warrant a conversation" then? 100?  1000?  How about 32,000 people a year in America?
@Baldr Odinson You do realize that of the 32,000 killed that 19,200 were criminals killed by Law abiding citzens legally armed, right? We are winning that battle. Now if you want a number, it would be 11 a day or 4,000 a year. The feds have used this number to rationalize the legal implications of the different laws they pass, the most recent example would be car design, the government wants high mileage cars, the car companies counter that it is possible if the can remove some to the protective structure in the car, the government asks how many more will be killed annually, the car industry replied 4,000 and the government said great, do it. The Government standard is 4,000 a year as an exceptable loss, not mass murder, premeditated expenditure of human life to advance the social agenda.
@peace Samuel Clemens was a wit
@Fancy Jack ---I was hoping for solutions that are not draconian gestapo-like. Such statistics, while meaningful, might sway a racist nut job like the Autzen Shooter who gunned down a black jogger, who had probably never even owned or fired a gun. Inflaming the public with such statistics, might do more harm than good. But, I do admire your devil's advocacy. 1st Am rights allow violent rap music to flourish among such impressionable youth. I'd love to lock up all the teenagers that listen to the most violent rap music. But, my kids won't let me! And, I do agree what Mark Twain said about what to do with a teenage boy when he turns 16.
@peace Canada has strict gun laws, when they first put them on the books, the Canadians started stabbing each other, then they passed knife laws, Canada is and will see a steady increase in their shootings, a steady stream of minorities from the States is moving their violence there. If we could use demographics to lower violent crime in America, it could be reduced more than 50%, we could do it over night. If we incarcerated all black males between the age of 16 to age 28, we would cut armed robberies by 50% and murder by 54%, 85% of the people they kill are black, this is based on the FBI annual crime report.
@Fancy Jack ---Never knew that (thanks). Have any solutions for lowering the 32G figure without an arms race amoung the citizens? Canada has more guns per capita than the US, but they manage not to be so trigger happy. Maybe that's because the cold weather cools off most of the hotheads. I think our friendly neighborhood Canucks pride themselves on that.
According to other reports (like the one linked here), the shooter used an assault rifle and wearing body armor, and may have fired up to 60 shots. Â Why do we still allow people to own military-style semi-auto assault rifles? Â Â http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Clackamas-Town-Center-shots-fired-183076991.html
@Baldr Odinson When I was in the Infantry, I eventually worked for the Infantry School at Fort Benning, we replace the M14 with the M16 because the M14 was too lethal and we developed a strategy that wounded men took more of the enemies resources and had a greater impact on the enemies morale, the program was so effective that the enemy took to shooting their wounded in the field because they did not have the resources to treat their wounded, the M16 was capable of killing, we selected it because it had a higher potential to maim, the M16 is a lesser threat than the majority of bolt action rifles.
@Fancy Jack ---I remember my superiors, mostly Nam vets back in the 80s. They referred to the M-16s as "pea shooters" and claimed that they were even stamped with the Mattel logo when they arrived in Nam. They preferred to have the heavier weapons, because enemies stayed dead. As an enemy of a nut job, I would rather be dead than be maimed by such pea shooters no matter what setting the thing was on or capable of. Furthermore, back in the 80s, it was quite easy to modifying the AR-15 in any way a nut job wanted. That was one arguement Clinton had for making it harder for the nuts.
@peace In 1973 we developed a process that renders radioactive material inert, This process allows us to take radioctive material and make depleted uranium rounds for any application we need, we have been discretely disposing of our waste since the 70s, that is why you never hear about disposal problems anymore. Recently a congressman was taking a tour of one of our facilities and the process was explained to him, he got all excited and said we need to tell the government, they patted him on the shoulder and told him that they already know. It is not a secret, and any good mechanical/electrical Tech can build the equipment to make the fuel for the process in their garage. We have had the solution for about 50 years now. The United States Navy just bought out a Canadian corp that maunfactured the equipment, they found that when they treated their ship hulls with the same process, that the hull were more corrosion resistant, now the only market that I am aware of is in China, they sell the machines for a little under $4,000. I am actually building one to make synthetic Rubies, given the amount of replica gem stones sold on QVC, I thought there might be a market for such stones. Your instincts are correct, when you seek informed guidance, you do not have to solve the same problem twice. Â
Nukes don't kill people, people do.
@Fancy Jack ---It has been incredibly worthy to spend time finding solutions by the process of eliminating the least of concern aspects of the M-16/AR-15. Your vast knowledge has done that for us. Now, what do we do about that triple melt-down of nuke puke in Japan that keeps endlessly spewing our way in the PO & on the jet stream?  Something tells me a genius savant like you, probably has some great advice (if not an immediate solution) for such a cataclysmic slow kill of our progeny.Â
@peace You could legally buy a drop in trigger system at one time, you could own the trigger system or you could own the rifle, but you could not own both. there is a new trigger system out there that is legal and requires a little skill in learning how to use, but Semi-auto is the most effective, nothing to gain with full auto.
For all of you gun guys who are trying to redefine the term "assault rifle", either out of ignorance or attempt to confuse people, here is the legal definition of the term: Â http://www.jud.ct.gov/ji/criminal/glossary/assaultweapon.htm
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You'll see I've made no mistakes in my definition of an AR-15 (used in this crime) and the term "semi-auto assault rifle" to describe it.
 @Baldr Odinson I was just joking when I asked if you were incapable of learning, but that was apparently a legitimate concern. =/ You have posted Connecticut's definition of an assault weapon, NOT an assault rifle. And as I've said to you several times, including on this very thread, they are DIFFERENT. An unmodified AR-15 is NEVER an assault rifle, and as long as it doesn't have a bayonet mount, flash suppressor, grenade launcher, or folding/telescoping stock in addition to it's pistol grip... it doesn't even meet the definition of an assault weapon!
@Baldr Odinson--- No time to read the legalese. All I know for sure is that I worked in an armory in the army and an AR-15 is an exact replica of an M-16 with a component that renders it supposedly incapable of full on automatic (AKA Rock n Roll). The component can be replaced or altered by a drunken 12-year-old.
@Fancy Jack ---It took a while, but I finally see the valuable point you have made. Any nut (hopefully a guntard) who figures out how to modify the AR-15 to full on rocknroll will be less of a threat to civilians (ie.a lower kill count). because the swat team has a better chance of winning when the nut shoots off all his ammo in one burst; gives up his postion; and finally gets snuffed by our heroes-- the trained sentinals. Perhaps that is exactly what happened at the Mall yesterday, and that is why the kill count was so low. I think you knew this all along. A bit unorthodox at getting my attention, but, I still salute you Captain Fancy Jack!
@Baldr Odinson @peace @Baldr Actually it is not a simple process, but you are right, it is doable, but you get a second rate weapon at best, at close range, we prefer shotguns and if the military could develop a shotgun round that was effective at 100 meters, we would get rid of our submachine guns, I prefer the shotgun over most weapons at close range and even developed a stackable round for a detachable magazine shotgun and as far as rifles, nothing beats a Browning Automatic Rifle in .338 made in Japan, an extremely fine rifle that never jams and kills as far as a man can see, these are the most effective weapons out there above all their military counterparts. As a point of reference, in the military, the guy that draws the most attention gets shot at the most, full auto will draw attention and everyone shoots at that guy, we have the 5 second rule, if you pull point and survive that first 5 seconds you stand a good chance of surviving the firefight, the same is said for the machine gunner, the radio/telephone operator and the commander, the Squad machine gun is a formidable weapon that requires extensive training to be effective, otherwise it is just a noise maker that everyone shoots at, ask Alvin York, He used a simple bolt action rifle, some firing discipline, and defeated an opponent that out numbered his squad 10 to one and was armed with overlapping fields of fire from heavy machine guns. The firing discipline of the United States Army during WW1 caused the Germans to believe that the United States had developed a light portable machine gun, never under estimate the bolt action rifle.
 @peace  @Baldr And therein lies a big problem with allowing assault weapons in the hands of civilians.  For those who aren't up to the level of "a drunken 12-year old," you can even find how-to books at gun shows on how to modify assault weapons (which you can buy there as well) to be full-auto.
 @Baldr Odinson Once again, the problem is not the choice of weapon, it's the shooter and his mentality. What if, instead, he'd decided to set off a bomb in the mall? Banning semi-auto rifles wouldn't stop that. In Japan, where gun control is tight, children have been known to take katanas (swords) to school and kill other kids. The problem is the violent individual and how to recognize/intervene with them before tragedy strikes. Focusing on guns (or any other particular weapon) takes the focus off solving the root problem. It's like debating what to use to plug the hole in the dike rather than turning off the water source that's creating the flooding in the first place.
@bystander @Baldr Odinson ---Exactly! And, in that country, the yakuza purposely store/stockpile caches of guns to offer up to the police in order to barter/broker release of their members or squelch a prosecution, etc.. Because, for the police the greatest evil is a gun among an unarmed citizenry AND unarmed police.
 @Baldr Odinson Because this is the United States of America and we are guaranteed by the US constitution that our right to bear arms shall not be infringed, that's why.  Since we live in a free country, by all means consider using this freedom to relocate to your no-right-to-bear-arms utopia of choice, like China.
 @Baldr Odinson Oh come on, we've been over this. Are you incapable of learning? I'll just quote wiki on this... "An assault rifle is a select-fire (either fully automatic or burst capable) rifle that uses an intermediate cartridge and a detachable magazine. It is NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH ASSAULT WEAPONS." So let's try that again. Assault weapon? Sure. Assault rife? No. And I know you don't give a flying fk, but the reason citizens have the RIGHT (not we "allow" them) to own (fill in the blank) firearms is because our citizens are supposed to have the firepower necessary to overthrow those who would seek to pervert the Constitution.
@PleaseBeSmart @Baldr Odinson ---our politicians, lawmakers, bureaucrats, big business, mafia... pervert our constitution all the time. But, they seldom get shot for it. I guess that's because they have the greatest fire power of all.
@PleaseBeSmart ---Agreed. There is no real way to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. I know Japan tries it's' best, but then only the gansters get the upper hand on the citizenry AND the police. But the powers that be over there seem to encourage this to keep the masses scared and neutered by a constant fear of the police AND the gangsters. Seemed to be a perfect 2-pronged system for social control. Seemed to work rather well until all of the corruption went unanswered concerning the greatest fire power of all: nuke puke. I am getting ready to join the NRA, for all the right reasons. But, I must learn more about those beastly progectiles before being a responsible gun owner. Peace!
 @peace You know, it sounds like you wouldn't really agree with me on this. I'm of the mind that there is no real way to keep guns out of the hands of criminals without infringing on liberties. I just don't see any possible way to do that. What I do think should be done is a dramatic overhaul of our prison system and harsher penalties for many crimes. And it importance of those closest to unstable individuals reaching out for help can't be understated. Unfortunately, a lot of times it isn't someone with a criminal past or a noticeable history of serious mental issues. I don't think there is anything that can be done about them that should be done.
@PleaseBeSmart ---agreed, posing such an hypothetical out of its temporal context is absurd, annoying and insulting to your intelligence. It may also be absurd to interpret the archaic verbage of the 2nd Amendment in ways that favor lax gun control laws in today's day and age. Lobbyist like the NRA who favor lax gun laws are willing to accept what happened yesterday as collateral damage for our rights to bear arms. I understand Clinton was able to twist the wrists of the NRA for tighter gun control laws and succeeded. I am forever wondering how to twist the wrists of the nut jobs that get hold of these guns/rifles so easily.
I am sure you have some ideas to prevent what happened yesterday. Please share them with us. I will get my first cup of coffee and maybe this thread can benefit from your brainstorming.
 @peace I don't think the amount of our firepower in any way impacts the reason for our 2nd amendment. Mind you, I would love for our Constitution to be restored through non-violent means, but history hasn't shown that to be much of a viable option. And I find your final sentence pretty absurd. Obviously not, as it likely had nothing to do with that.
@PleaseBeSmart ---I appreciate the clarification and info. Just a little concerned about a constitution and a quote from (albeit one of our greatest founding fathers) a time when inherently corrupt govt. did not have the fire power to destroy the planet a million times over. I will just stick my head in the sand and pray that my delusion of non-violent solutions can trump the self-fulfilling prophecy of an over-armed militia. And, I hope that a healthy balance of power between an over-armed citizenry and the corrupt  govt. doesn't unecessarily spill too much blood. Would TJ say that the people shot to death yesterday with a near to defacto M-16 was patriot blood spilled as collateral damage to refresh our tree of liberty?
 @peace There is already enough firepower in the hands of American citizens to overtake them. Theirs is not as mighty as it would appear because quite frankly, plenty of the military believes strongly in the oath they've taken and would NOT be on their side. My "or it won't and we will fall" comment was intended to mean that we'll either fight at some point, or we'll wait until we're sufficiently suppressed that fighting is not an option and our Constitution and republic will fall. Because I'm under no delusions that it will be restored through anything but violence. As Thomas Jefferson put it, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
@PleaseBeSmart ---you are right, they have unquestionably greater amounts of money TO BUY unquestionably greater fire power. How can I afford an army of body guards, when I cannot even afford a gun or health care when I get shot trying to fight back? Perhaps, that is what you mean by: "Or it won't and we will 'fall'." But, like you mention, you don't want to talk about it very much. That is fair enough. We would just spend more time agreeing on the state of our nation and constituion, which is outside the scope of this thread. Peace!
 @peace I'm well aware of the state of our nation and Constitution. And no, I don't think it's because they have unquestionably greater fire power. I really don't want to talk about this very much, so I'll just say that the time for violence will likely come. Or it won't and we will fall. Either way, that's the reason our founders ensured the right of our citizens to arm themselves. At least we have a fighting chance.
To qoute "Baldr Odinson" from an earlier post " I am a constitution hating,second amendment bashing paid commie troll..."
@Baldr Odinson
I think a better question is why doesn't every citizen carry a gun for the protection of their life and others? One person with a legal carried weapon may have been able to stop this senseless tragedy.
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I suppose Clackamas Mall has a "no weapons policy". Maybe the offender couldn't read? Or maybe he/she just didn't care.
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This is why I have a CHL. I couldn't live with myself if this happened in a store I was shopping at. I couldn't live with the fact that I may have been able to stop this.
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@Baldr Odinson
I think a better question is why doesn't every citizen carry a gun for the protection of their life and others? One person with a legal carried weapon may have been able to stop this senseless tragedy.
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I suppose Clackamas Mall has a "no weapons policy". Maybe the offender couldn't read? Or maybe he/she just didn't care.
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@Biff Johnson---Very good point, I almost bought that 70%0ff Groupon for courses to get a concealed weapon permit last Summer. Maybe if more responsible people were "packen" in public areas we could just blow these nut jobs away before they have a chance to discharge 60 rounds?
@PleaseBeSmart ---thanks for the intel!
 @peace If you're not already competent with firearms, LCC offers an EXCELLENT concealed carry class with Raye Gunter. It's more expensive and time-consuming but worth every single penny and minute. If you already know firearms, laws, etc. and are skilled, then go ahead and do the classes that only take a few hours though. :)
You actually think that criminals will obey gun control laws?
You're a special kind of stupid, aren't you?
 First of all, its not a "Military Style Assault Rifle".  We are allowed to own weapons because of our Second Amendment rights.  "Assault Rifle" is defined as "a select-fire, either fully automatic or burst capable rifle".  The rifles being used in these shootings are not fully automatic as it is illegal to own a fully automatic rifle unless you have a FFL.  Secondly, it is not the rifle that killed the people, it is the person operating the rifle that killed the people.  The rifle that was assumed used in this instance is no different from any other semi automatic weapon commonly used for hunting and recreation.  US Civilians do not own "Assault Rifles".
 @Law-Abiding, Gun Carrying Citizen i tottaly agree with u. just because there are some crazy insane people out there doesnt mean that we all are gunna do this, the gun law is a great law, and i personally have my conceled handgun license, but its for protection from crazy people like this, legal or not there will still be crazy people out there doing things like this no matter what the law is, so the people that think we shouldnt have guns, well all i can say is when someone is shooting u down, or breaking into ur house good luck protecting urself...
@Law-Abiding, Gun Carrying Citizen ---Guns don't kill people, just the nut jobs that so easily get a hold of them. Or, the children yesterday (ages 7&11) whose parents are probably nut jobs.Peace!
@Law-Abiding, Gun Carrying Citizen ---  I am being petty in my interpretaion of semantics, but doesn't any rifle used to not only assault people but kill people qualify as an "'assault' rifle" in the broadest definition.
 @Law-Abiding, Gun Carrying Citizen I like what you're saying, but unfortunately you're not correct. You don't need an FFL, nor a Class 3 to own an assault rifle. All you need is clean background check, approval from the ATF and your local Chief LEO, submit photograph and fingerprints, pay a tax, and get ATF permission before moving it across state lines. It's completely legal, however, and plenty of civilians own assault rifles. They're almost never used in crimes, though.. and even when they are they tend to be illegally obtained weapons.
 @SwiftlyJust I'm all about the Constitution and small government, but being socially liberal makes me clash with conservatives on a lot. :) No love for the Libertarians. I do think we need much harsher punishment, and yeah... the death penalty is not utilized nearly enough. And I'm a HUGE softy when it comes to animals and kids. Our dogs are the center of our household. =P
 @PleaseBeSmart I get pictured as a "sir" probably because of my bold insistence that we should execute more criminals and enforce MUCH harsher punishments on others. If it was up to me, we'd go back to the days of public hangings and firing squads. As you can tell, I'm a rabid believer in our 2nd Amendment (and the Constitution in general!) and I support strongly the right to carry concealed guns.The big secret is that I'm a real softy when it comes to some things...and I'll occasionally show my mush on a thread about animals, kids or victims.;) Shhhhhh....;)
 @SwiftlyJust LMFAO! Pink AND guns. I like it. ;)
 @PleaseBeSmart I changed my icon just for you!
 @SwiftlyJust Lol. Sorry about that! All this time I've had you pictured as a sir. People assume I'm a guy too. Maybe we should get some PINK icons. =D Hah! Just kidding.Â
 @PleaseBeSmart Well good luck trying to educate him. Others have tried for many years and he's still just as singular-minded and daft as ever. I don't give out my name either, but I will tell you that.... Shhhhh....I'm not a "good sir"!
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 @SwiftlyJust Well I'm certainly with you on that one, good sir.. It's INCREDIBLY over-used and poorly comprehended and is, in fact, being incorrectly used by Baldr at this exact moment. =/ It's exasperating.Â
 @PleaseBeSmart By the way, I'm not actually pointing my comments solely at you. You just happened to be the one to answer my post. This term really bothers me because it's overused by idiots like Balder. I still take the position that a rifle is JUST a rifle. I think that fundamentally, we agree on a lot more than we disagree on!
 @SwiftlyJust I don't normally give out my name since I'm quite open with my opinions on here, or I'd introduce myself to you. It seems like we have more in common than apart on this issue. It's just that I'm a stickler for correct terminology and I'm already trying to get Baldr to use to proper terms and stop calling everything an assault rifle! =)
 @PleaseBeSmart Okay...just wondered:)
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 @SwiftlyJust No... =/
 @PleaseBeSmart Darlene? ;)
 @SwiftlyJust You know, you're really saying a lot of these things to the wrong person. I know what AR stands for, and I own a semi-auto AK-47. I'm not some sensationalist journalist for christ sake. My husband is a war vet and a pretty decent gunsmith. I'm studying Constitutional law and deeply care about the 2nd Amendment. We own a lot of weapons and we enjoy shooting regularly. =/ I AM a fan of proper terminology, though. "Assault rifle" didn't just come about in the past few years. As far as I can tell, it originated in 1972. You can deny it's a word all day long but that doesn't make it so. An assault rifle meets all the criteria of a rifle (designed to be fired from the shoulder, has rifling) AND it is either fully-automatic or burst-fire capible, uses an intermediate cartridge and detachable magazine. It doesn't matter what color it is and it doesn't matter if it looks mean. Current AR-15s can't be "assault rifles" because they are semi-auto only. The "assault rifle" version of that is an M16. There's also separate definitions for "machine guns," "submachine guns" and a really confusing politician definition of an "assault weapon." Words have meaning dmn it.
 @PleaseBeSmart Just because Wikipedia lists it doesn't make it a real word. Rifles do not assault anyone or anything. The term "assault rifle" has only come about in the past few years and was indeed created by the anti-gun media. What, specifically, would make a rifle an "assault rifle"? Does it simply have to be black and look "mean"? Does it have to be semi-automatic? AR 15s and AK-47s were around for a long time before anyone ever called them "assault rifles". They were just rifles. Many people think that the AR in AR-15 stands for "assault rifle". It does not...and never did. ARs were built originally by Armalite and were/are just a lightweight, polymer hunting rifle. They are great guns that are fun to shoot and have little to no recoil, making them popular among both men and women hunters and gun enthusiasts.
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 @SwiftlyJust =/ I have no idea where the term came from, but "assault rifle" is a more specific term than "rifle" and DOES have its own definition. It is inaccurately used, often, especial by Balder. I don't like the way the term is used, misused and bastardized, but we can't correct that nonsense by claiming there's no such classification as an assault rifle.
 @PleaseBeSmart  @Law-Abiding, Gun Carrying Citizen Let's get this straight. There is NO SUCH THING as an "assault rifle"! That is a term that was coined by the hysterical, singular-minded anti-gun whackos like Balder Odinson. "AR" stands for "Armalite". The fact that a rifle is black and made of polymer parts doesn't mean it's any more likely to be used to assault others. It's JUST A RIFLE, folks. Perhaps we should just call the bad guy an "Assault Criminal"???